Some of them, yes. What was going on? Did he interact comfortably with the other leaders at the summit? Then about three weeks later I was testifying as a regular matter on the RTC, I guess it was semiannual oversight hearings on the RTC, and Senator Gramm or Senator [Chris] Bond, Senator Gramm I think, asked me if Id had any contact with the White House about this whole matter. I think John Kennedys famous line about Jefferson applies because he had nine simultaneous careers, and the Presidency was only one. But its there on the record; everybody can read those reports. Remember, I was there during the 1963-67 period. I think it just evolved rather randomly that not many of those former Carter people got involved with Clinton. But really, not until the spring of 1991 when I began to hear rumblings that he was thinking of running. I came to respect Dole a lot through Bentsen. The reason I posed the question the way I did is that since World War II theres been bipartisanship in Presidential leadership on free trade. We just discussed one of them, which is the up cycle in partisanship, as I call it. Can you tell us generally about your role during the general election campaign? I think theres a wonderful tradition in American government where the outgoing administration typically does everything it can to assist the incoming one, and that was certainly true with the [Gerald] Ford administration. There were some cases where we did, but we didnt broadly know where each member of Congress really stood on this. It became obvious to me that it was just untenable to keep trying to shout into this hurricane. Very, I think, untoward behavior, myself. So I knew nothing about the substance of the Clinton case. From the very beginning I was spending a lot of my time on the Presidents economic program. You look at the turnover that she hador in her case did not haveon her staff, and the turnover that he had. Altman made a point to carry shoes as tiny as size 5 and mammoth as size 20, with widths ranging from super skinny AAAA to 6E and kept 23 basement storage They were cutting deals like there was no tomorrow. It was hard to make any progress at all because the Japanese really didnt want to agree to any of this. I wasnt involved in any of the delegate-related strategies, no. Clinton chose in Bentsen, with the possible exception of [Robert] Dole, who obviously wasnt a candidate for this, the most experienced person in the entire United States Congress. No. When you were suggesting Edmund Morris I was thinking. Anyway, then Secretary Bentsen and I repaired to the little study off the White House, the two of us, just to watch the actual vote. He didnt think much of the Btu tax. So there was a lot of humor like that. Were now in the pre-election period. He should have taken it. I dont know who was, and some people say there werent any, but I wasnt, even though I was always described that way, always baffled me. Everybody was sitting in a room for the endless hours that have been so widely written about, which was quite a chaotic, disorganized process and not particularly Presidential process. Carter did the same thing but much lower key. Its quite a difference and I ascribe it to the fact that she does not look at the world as, or at least in my experience, as solely and only politically. One of the initial ideas was an energy tax. Mrs. Bentsen responded. So he didnt have the luxury of saying, Lets do it a year from now, as you often do with other things. No. And Bentsen did make the call. Altman gave Then I would have discussions with Clinton, usually on the fly, about certain economic issues I thought were important. He demonstrated his phenomenal grasp of policy issues, just through sitting there for many hours a day. He wanted me to go see Bentsen. Lloyd Bentsen was a classic Texas conservative Democrat. I dont know how many people would have the political courage to do that, but I know I wouldnt have. Yes, Putting People First was reissued, I believe it was June. Ive read a lot of whats been written about the healthcare plan, its all there. I mean, I saw a lot of the two of them and I became quite friendly with Hillary, and by the time I left the administration was actually much more friendly with Hillary than I was with the President, even though ironically Id obviously known him first. We had a chat; we had a nice time. He may be forever seen in the middle. I mean, it can be in private, it can be in print, it can be any other way. The notion, by the way, in Bob Woodwards book, The Agenda, that Greenspan was hovering over the proceedings like an angel of death is completely fictitious. He did, that was the first State of the Union. Thats not particularly my recollection, no. I couldnt for the life of me see why that was a problem, but anyway, I went to the White House and told Bernie Nussbaum, the White House Counsel, just how the RTC actually operated in these matters. Lets divide concessions into two: actual changes in the bill, and then offering a Congressman something in another area to help make it easier for him to vote for this. And we had the same in the Carter administration, but it had been more junior. Well, after the Presidents unveiling and before the war room, this pre-war room effort at selling, how was that coordinated? The Clinton stimulus plan just was not well conceived. He loved policy. I mean, it was just a morgue. Casey came to see Bentsen and essentially asked to be reappointed and Bentsen told him, No. There was some action forcing the schedule and the President would have had to ditch the treaty, just say, Ive decided Im not for it. What political or personal characteristics does she have that he doesnt have, what does she bring to the. That was just how all Presidents should act. But the tax increasesand there were two main ones, the energy tax and the upper bracket increasewere seen by the Republicans, every last one of them, as unacceptable and became their rallying cry. Hed been shot eight times. I said, Yes, I had this one meeting, and told him what it was. So I think Clintons own behavior did play a role in it and that in retrospect there would have been better ways for Clinton to have dealt with some of these things. So essentially you would not have been involved in any of the crafting, I guess, you basically were given an agreement and it was a question of just lining up the votes at this point. President Clinton, Democrat, nominated a Republican to this job and the Democrats defeated his nomination. Ill never forget, I went in to see one of them whod been shot eight times. But I think the most that the Fed can be expected to do is move short rates. I know Bentsen, especially in retrospect I know Bentsen. I think less well than he was treated while he was in office. Youve had Chiefs of Staff, Don Regan comes to mind, who see themselves as all-powerful and go too far to one end of the spectrum, and youve had others like Mack, who are too deferential and too averse to confrontation and go too far in the other direction. Bentsen knew Clinton wouldnt get anything else if he didnt. So I watched the Senate vote, also on television, this time in the war room. This giant controversy erupted over that. Of course, there was Leon Panetta, and Bob Rubin and Lloyd Bentsen, Alice Rivlin, Laura Tyson, myself, Gene Sperling, those were really the main members. I think Clinton authentically saw healthcare as more important, believed it was a bigger national problem, and thought he was tackling the bigger of the two. That was not well known to me at the time. The Senate Finance Committee is the most powerful committee, Bentsen had been chairman for quite a few years, was seen universally as a very effective, powerful chairman. Right now, again, were very far away from even the primaries still, let alone the general election, but right now the most active topic of discussion by the candidates by far is healthcare. Not at the outside, but eventually, I came into the second camp because I began to understand the scope of the issue. Or should be, not will be, but should be. Carter had chosen, as you remember, to somehow find a diplomatic solution to that crisis. This wont help you because its not very original, but theres something about President Clinton that had the effect of rubbing salt on a wound as far as his opponents were concerned. But, you know, its history, its participating right there in the actual, critical moment of history, and the sense of participating is very uplifting. That was not clear to me. Youre only there because he allowed you to be, and you owe him a debt of gratitude for that because without him no service, and without service your life is less. Chicago, of course, always has been, and they attracted very different students. Im in the first camp, it was a great triumph, but Im not sure that history will accord him that. Bob Rubin was the ultimate financial market person, knew the role of the Federal Reserve so well. Im not sure that was what they originally intended, I suppose it was, but I wasnt involved in the planning of the summit, I just went to it and had a role on one of the panels and sat around for a couple of days, really. There were some folks from the White House Press Secretarys office who were in it. Georgetown was not a hotbed of political activism. There were so many exceptions and carve-outs and so forth from the final bill that you couldnt count them. But with regard to deficit reduction. Oh, in the bill itself? Theyd review it and youd go to a meeting where you received a 900-page memo, three quarters of which you didnt understand. I moved over to the White House, was given a strange assignment, which was to go run this thing called the Summit of the Americas which occurred in December of 94, which was this meeting of literally 35 heads of state in Miami for three days to talk about why you would have a hemispheric free trade agreement. But I was briefed on the procedures the RTC had to follow here. I guess that again leads to the question about the uncertainty and anxiety of a transition period, trying to figure out which person. She wears her heart on her sleeve much more than he does. So they came in and interviewed him. Ickes arrived for different reasons; that wasnt to try to lend organization to the process. The type of student attending each school at the time. So that resulted in my having, I suppose, a jack-of-all-trades job. In the last 48 or 72 hours, because that vote was also a cliffhanger, although not as close. Clinton had his own style of charm and Bush has a little bit different style, but not very different. It wasnt a great agreement. The assessment was correct because, I cant recall the size of the economy then, but today it is about $10.7 trillion. By and large, most of the members of the Finance Committee in the Senate and the Ways and Means Committee in the House. Could be. Now, it may last five or six more years, it may last 25 more years, I dont know. It certainly wasnt optimal. I consider that another important legacy, since not that many Presidents of the 20th century have it. It turned out that the thing had really been left by the wayside and there was very little of the necessary planning that had gone into it and it was about two months off. Two questions, one of which was minor. I put the President on the phone with her and of course, she cast the decisive vote. Its mostly things I learned that dont work. It was an all right agreement. Finally the famous proposal comes forward and its put before the Congress. But then of course, I went home, my family was away, you walk home, you walk into your house, and its time to watch ESPN [Entertainment and Sports Programming Network] or whatever you do. Were they talking about what you do with Senator X, with Congressman Y? All the groundwork had been done before the storm broke, so there were probably three to four hundred people. A lot of funny things were happening. You said earlier you were involved raising some money, but also providing some advice and guidance on economic policy. So no, Bentsen did not go over to the White House, hang around, talk about legislative strategy. That was the moment, that day. Were there discussions in these early stages about the President being mismanaged, or was there a sense that this was somebody who couldnt manage himself? I think well probably want to pick up there and find out about that experience. To make a long story short, of course we all hired lawyers and so forth and we were brought before a grand jury. I think we made some, but it was grudging and limited. I did too. Because it promotes a lack of confidence in financial markets and, for that matter, a lack of confidence in the business community, a sense that that administration doesnt know what its doing. But was it a battle? In fact, thats an important point. There was also a whole series of other investigations undertaken at the same time, one by the Office of Government Ethics, one by the Treasury Inspector General, one by the Office of White House Counsel. Clintons very first initiative was his stimulus program. You can do all kinds of approaches to anything. So an hour before the vote is when we heard that we probably had his vote. Its curious to me, but thats how it worked. I think our administration tried, as hard as it was possible to try, to change the dynamic of the U.S.-Japanese trade relationship. One of the themes they advanced was deficit reduction, not the only one. Theres one thing about Clinton that I think is beyond debate, that hes a fabulous politician. Bentsen really respected Dole. You indicated that the President did it right with Treasury. The first thing that we typically do is a quick voice identification so that the transcriptionist will know whos talking at any given time.Im Russell Riley, the project leader for the Clinton Presidential History Project. Those things were at a peak in 94, just at the time healthcare was on the table. Doing concerted, multilateral action of the type youre referring to is really only appropriate in the midst of a crisis. It was a voluntary choice. I dont think this is what it really says, but I suppose in the distant lens of history, Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War. 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